Signals & Levers • Elisabeth Hendrickson, Joel Tosi & Charles Humble • GOTO 2026

This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club. #GOTOcon #GOTObookclub http://gotopia.tech/bookclub Elisabeth Hendrickson - Advisor, Coach, Speaker & Co-Author of "Signals & Levers" @curiousduckdev Joel Tosi - Co-Founder & CTO at Dojo & Co & Co-Author of "Signals & Levers" Charles Humble - Freelance Techie, Podcaster, Editor, Author & Consultant Check out more here: https://gotopia.tech/episodes/448 RESOURCES Elisabeth https://ruby.social/@testobsessed https://github.com/testobsessed https://www.linkedin.com/in/testobsessed https://curiousduck.io Joel https://mastodon.social/@joeltosi https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-tosi-531a3b Charles https://bsky.app/profile/charleshumble.bsky.social https://linkedin.com/in/charleshumble https://mastodon.social/@charleshumble https://conissaunce.com Links https://ruthmalan.com http://www.ask-force.org/web/Discourse/Rittel-Dilemmas-General-Theory-Planning-1973.pdf https://youtu.be/9w6YeNNJLkg https://youtu.be/m7cWdYVAzX0 https://youtu.be/WazqgfsO_kY https://youtu.be/lpNzR0fvxDw https://youtu.be/OkVjqwkveiY https://youtu.be/j2AQ9eTZ3-0 https://youtu.be/BvJ0XLyCQsw https://youtu.be/RNdspOqbBEk https://youtu.be/qjJ6LvOU7q0 https://youtu.be/p-R7Doigqzc DESCRIPTION Elisabeth Hendrickson and Joel Tosi open by explaining why systems thinking is having a moment right now: organizations that went all-in on Agile and DevOps are finding those returns plateauing, and the rise of AI is forcing engineering teams to reexamine where their real bottlenecks are. The book, Signals & Levers, gives software engineers a practical vocabulary and toolkit for that examination. A core insight is that most organizational dysfunction isn't caused by bad people or bad intentions, but by systems that produce bad outcomes predictably and structurally. The named archetypes in the book — over 20 of them, covering patterns like escalating technical debt, the "fixes that fail" loop, and the boiling frog — give teams a shared language to recognize and reason about those patterns without having to discover them from scratch. The most practically actionable section of the conversation covers signals versus levers: understanding the difference between information (a signal) and an intervention point (a lever) is the foundation for making changes that actually work rather than changes that feel productive and achieve nothing. On AI, both authors are cautious in the right ways: Elisabeth uses it daily as a thinking partner but keeps herself firmly at the steering wheel. Joel's warning is starker — AI amplifies whatever is already true about your organization, including dysfunction, and if it lets you ship faster than you can learn, the consequences may be severe. The book closes with an exercise for the reader: if AI doubles your delivery speed, what happens when you can ship faster than you can adapt? TIMECODES 00:00 Intro 01:29 Why is Systems Thinking having a moment? 07:02 Once you see the system, you can't unsee it 13:40 The importance of storytelling 17:14 Agile, Lean, XP... Why are we still missing deadlines? 21:58 Illusions of progress, predictability & control 26:16 Signals vs. Levers: The core distinction 30:11 Why does fixing the wrong thing feel like progress? 36:27 How do leaders separate signal from noise? 40:21 What is causal modeling? 46:16 Culture vs. Policy 55:43 AI as thinking partner & amplifier of dysfunction 59:36 Resources 01:01:50 Outro RECOMMENDED BOOKS Elisabeth Hendrickson & Joel Tosi • Signals & Levers • https://amzn.to/4g6Fb3C Diana Montalion • Learning Systems Thinking • https://amzn.to/3ZpycdJ Don Norman • The Design of Everyday Things • https://amzn.to/4fV6QVl Gene Kim • The Unicorn Project • https://amzn.to/3woXQDz Gene Kim, Kevin Behr & George Spafford • The Phoenix Project • https://amzn.to/3X9cYxa Peter Degrace & Leslie Hulet Stahl • Wicked Problems, Righteous Solutions • https://amzn.to/3ScP0D9 Frederick Brooks Jr. • The Mythical Man-Month • https://amzn.to/4gd10OV Gerald Weinberg • An Introduction to General Systems Thinking • https://amzn.to/4dZCsaO Donella H. Meadows • Thinking in Systems • https://amzn.to/3XtqYCV https://bsky.app/profile/gotocon.com https://twitter.com/GOTOcon https://www.linkedin.com/company/goto- https://www.instagram.com/goto_con https://www.facebook.com/GOTOConferences #SystemsThinking #Signal #Levers #CompanyCulture #CompanyPolicy #Programming #TodayInTech #ElisabethHendrickson #JoelTosi #CharlesHumble #BookClub CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket at https://gotopia.tech Sign up for updates and specials at https://gotopia.tech/newsletter SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHANNEL - new videos posted almost daily. https://www.youtube.com/user/GotoConferences/?sub_confirmation=1